BL - 1st attempt, Testing in 2 days

Interior Layout & Building Layout Vignettes

BL - 1st attempt, Testing in 2 days

Postby SDTK » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:09 pm

Hello,
Here is my first attempt at the BL vignette. Some questions I have are:

- Only doors exiting the building/lobby/corridor need to swing out? On the ground floor, if a stair is sandwiched for some reason, and only has a single door into the corridor, shouldn't it swing into the corridor?
- Is there a minimum room dimension? I kept everything at least 10' minimum in one dimension, but if I'm in a bind, can less suffice?
- What is the rule of thumb for window placement and sizes? I just quickly dropped in windows between 6-10 feet wide where needed.
- My visual connection from Reception to Game Room is not ideal, but would this be a point deduction as shown?
- Could the Childrens Room's 2nd door exit out of the building if necessary? And in the same way, could the Multi-Purpose's 2nd door be located along the corridor, like the other door, as long as there is 50% diagonal separation?
- Just want to verify that the area of the lobby does not count towards the total maximum circulation area percentage?

Thank you in advance!
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Re: BL - 1st attempt, Testing in 2 days

Postby Sparky83 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:58 am

SDTK wrote:Hello,
Here is my first attempt at the BL vignette. Some questions I have are:

- Only doors exiting the building/lobby/corridor need to swing out? Correct.On the ground floor, if a stair is sandwiched for some reason, and only has a single door into the corridor, shouldn't it swing into the corridor? NO!!
- Is there a minimum room dimension? I kept everything at least 10' minimum in one dimension, but if I'm in a bind, can less suffice? Yes, but the minimum recommended room proportion is 2:1.
- What is the rule of thumb for window placement and sizes? I just quickly dropped in windows between 6-10 feet wide where needed. That works.
- My visual connection from Reception to Game Room is not ideal, but would this be a point deduction as shown? Yes. A person inside R must be able to see the GR entry. That means the door.
- Could the Childrens Room's 2nd door exit out of the building if necessary? It isn't necessary.And in the same way, could the Multi-Purpose's 2nd door be located along the corridor, like the other door, as long as there is 50% diagonal separation? Yes, but your MP has only 1 exit. Exit doors MUST swing in the direction of egress.
- Just want to verify that the area of the lobby does not count towards the total maximum circulation area percentage? The program does not mention a maximum circulation percentage. It says maximum corridor percentage. A lobby is not a corridor.

Thank you in advance!

Lobby proportions are terrible.
Double doors are not needed because egress capacity is not in the program.
The exterior exit near the east stair is redundant. The stair IS an exit.
Why does CR have 2 doors? How does a person in R see BOTH?
Logically EE belongs on the lower level.
Avoid L-shaped rooms.
See exit comment about MP above.
Cannot see any windows..interior or exterior.
Check area of SM. Looks too big.
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Re: BL - 1st attempt, Testing in 2 days

Postby SDTK » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:40 pm

Sparky83 wrote:
SDTK wrote:Hello,
Here is my first attempt at the BL vignette. Some questions I have are:

- Only doors exiting the building/lobby/corridor need to swing out? Correct.On the ground floor, if a stair is sandwiched for some reason, and only has a single door into the corridor, shouldn't it swing into the corridor? NO!! That's not how it works in the real world, and I would assume NCARB prefers an exit door to follow the path of travel. This is also why the corridors are 6' wide, so an open 3' door allows for a 3' path remaining
- Is there a minimum room dimension? I kept everything at least 10' minimum in one dimension, but if I'm in a bind, can less suffice? Yes, but the minimum recommended room proportion is 2:1.
- What is the rule of thumb for window placement and sizes? I just quickly dropped in windows between 6-10 feet wide where needed. That works.
- My visual connection from Reception to Game Room is not ideal, but would this be a point deduction as shown? Yes. A person inside R must be able to see the GR entry. That means the door.
- Could the Childrens Room's 2nd door exit out of the building if necessary? It isn't necessary.And in the same way, could the Multi-Purpose's 2nd door be located along the corridor, like the other door, as long as there is 50% diagonal separation? Yes, but your MP has only 1 exit. Exit doors MUST swing in the direction of egress.
- Just want to verify that the area of the lobby does not count towards the total maximum circulation area percentage? The program does not mention a maximum circulation percentage. It says maximum corridor percentage. A lobby is not a corridor.

Thank you in advance!

Lobby proportions are terrible. OK
Double doors are not needed because egress capacity is not in the program. OK, this was done in the NCARB passing solution. Would this be a reduction?
The exterior exit near the east stair is redundant. The stair IS an exit. This door would be easier to access from the corridor, than the exit door in the stair... This was also done in the NCARB solution
Why does CR have 2 doors? How does a person in R see BOTH? There needs to be a visible connection from CR to MP, as well as R
Logically EE belongs on the lower level. I couldn't make it fit, program allows for it on either level
Avoid L-shaped rooms. Would love to, but there is no penalty for proposing this
See exit comment about MP above. OK
Cannot see any windows..interior or exterior. They are there, This forum does not allow larger files for better clarity
Check area of SM. Looks too big.
Thank you, Sparky
SDTK
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:07 am

Re: BL - 1st attempt, Testing in 2 days

Postby Sparky83 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:39 pm

SDTK wrote:
Sparky83 wrote:
SDTK wrote:Hello,
Here is my first attempt at the BL vignette. Some questions I have are:

- Only doors exiting the building/lobby/corridor need to swing out? Correct.On the ground floor, if a stair is sandwiched for some reason, and only has a single door into the corridor, shouldn't it swing into the corridor? NO!! That's not how it works in the real world, and I would assume NCARB prefers an exit door to follow the path of travel. This is also why the corridors are 6' wide, so an open 3' door allows for a 3' path remaining No, that's NOT how it works in the real world. Those are doors, NOT exit doors. Please learn the difference.
- Is there a minimum room dimension? I kept everything at least 10' minimum in one dimension, but if I'm in a bind, can less suffice? Yes, but the minimum recommended room proportion is 2:1.
- What is the rule of thumb for window placement and sizes? I just quickly dropped in windows between 6-10 feet wide where needed. That works.
- My visual connection from Reception to Game Room is not ideal, but would this be a point deduction as shown? Yes. A person inside R must be able to see the GR entry. That means the door.
- Could the Childrens Room's 2nd door exit out of the building if necessary? It isn't necessary.And in the same way, could the Multi-Purpose's 2nd door be located along the corridor, like the other door, as long as there is 50% diagonal separation? Yes, but your MP has only 1 exit. Exit doors MUST swing in the direction of egress.
- Just want to verify that the area of the lobby does not count towards the total maximum circulation area percentage? The program does not mention a maximum circulation percentage. It says maximum corridor percentage. A lobby is not a corridor.

Thank you in advance!

Lobby proportions are terrible. OK
Double doors are not needed because egress capacity is not in the program. OK, this was done in the NCARB passing solution. Would this be a reduction?
Possibly, and you won't have a sample to look at in the testing room. NCARB provides passing examples, not perfect examples. Their passing solutions contain errors.

The exterior exit near the east stair is redundant. The stair IS an exit. This door would be easier to access from the corridor, than the exit door in the stair... This was also done in the NCARB solution It's not about what is easier. Your way costs more too. See above.
Why does CR have 2 doors? How does a person in R see BOTH? There needs to be a visible connection from CR to MP, as well as R
Logically EE belongs on the lower level. I couldn't make it fit, program allows for it on either level You couldn't? You're the designer.
Avoid L-shaped rooms. Would love to, but there is no penalty for proposing this Prove it.
See exit comment about MP above. OK
Cannot see any windows..interior or exterior. They are there, This forum does not allow larger files for better clarity Other people manage. You can mark up your upload too.
Check area of SM. Looks too big.
Thank you, Sparky
Sparky83
 
Posts: 7649
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:36 pm

Re: BL - 1st attempt, Testing in 2 days

Postby SDTK » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:00 pm

Sparky83 wrote:
SDTK wrote:
Sparky83 wrote:
SDTK wrote:Hello,
Here is my first attempt at the BL vignette. Some questions I have are:

- Only doors exiting the building/lobby/corridor need to swing out? Correct.On the ground floor, if a stair is sandwiched for some reason, and only has a single door into the corridor, shouldn't it swing into the corridor? NO!! That's not how it works in the real world, and I would assume NCARB prefers an exit door to follow the path of travel. This is also why the corridors are 6' wide, so an open 3' door allows for a 3' path remaining No, that's NOT how it works in the real world. Those are doors, NOT exit doors. Please learn the difference. Sorry, Sparky. I disagree but I think there may be a miscommunication here. In the event that an elevator is sandwiched between rooms, and does not provide direct access to exterior grade, but only provides a door to the corridor at grade level, that door would be a part of the exit route and would swing in the path of travel... it would swing into the corridor (only at grade level or whatever level has the exit discharge). Every other level, the door would swing into the stair, as that would be the path of travel. I have responded to this building department plan check comment in the past.
- Is there a minimum room dimension? I kept everything at least 10' minimum in one dimension, but if I'm in a bind, can less suffice? Yes, but the minimum recommended room proportion is 2:1.
- What is the rule of thumb for window placement and sizes? I just quickly dropped in windows between 6-10 feet wide where needed. That works.
- My visual connection from Reception to Game Room is not ideal, but would this be a point deduction as shown? Yes. A person inside R must be able to see the GR entry. That means the door.
- Could the Childrens Room's 2nd door exit out of the building if necessary? It isn't necessary.And in the same way, could the Multi-Purpose's 2nd door be located along the corridor, like the other door, as long as there is 50% diagonal separation? Yes, but your MP has only 1 exit. Exit doors MUST swing in the direction of egress.
- Just want to verify that the area of the lobby does not count towards the total maximum circulation area percentage? The program does not mention a maximum circulation percentage. It says maximum corridor percentage. A lobby is not a corridor.

Thank you in advance!

Lobby proportions are terrible. OK
Double doors are not needed because egress capacity is not in the program. OK, this was done in the NCARB passing solution. Would this be a reduction?
Possibly, and you won't have a sample to look at in the testing room. NCARB provides passing examples, not perfect examples. Their passing solutions contain errors.
They don't provide us with a sample in the test?
The exterior exit near the east stair is redundant. The stair IS an exit. This door would be easier to access from the corridor, than the exit door in the stair... This was also done in the NCARB solution It's not about what is easier. Your way costs more too. See above. This test is , in part, intended to determine our ability to provide a safe exit for inhabitants. The exit door from the corridor near the rear stair is not only "easier" it is safer and more efficient in comparison to forcing people to enter a stairwell before exiting. I recognize that NCARB does not enforce all code requirements for the sake of this test, but when a portion of our score is based on corridor efficiency, I have to wonder if the cost of an additional door outweighs the benefit of a more appropriately placed exit at grade level.
Why does CR have 2 doors? How does a person in R see BOTH? There needs to be a visible connection from CR to MP, as well as R
Logically EE belongs on the lower level. I couldn't make it fit, program allows for it on either level You couldn't? You're the designer. If someone has already laid out their general building arrangement, and the addition of the EE room on level 1 would require a complete redesign of that level, and subsequently the level above, it should be acceptable to locate the EE room on level 2 in an effort to save time. NCARB makes plenty of mistakes, but I don't believe they forgot to list a required level for EE in their program.
Avoid L-shaped rooms. Would love to, but there is no penalty for proposing this Prove it. I don't work for NCARB. If they have specified that we are to avoid L-shaped rooms, you could just reference where they have stated this.
See exit comment about MP above. OK
Cannot see any windows..interior or exterior. They are there, This forum does not allow larger files for better clarity Other people manage. You can mark up your upload too.
Check area of SM. Looks too big.
Thank you, Sparky


Again, thank you, Sparky.
SDTK
 
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Re: BL - 1st attempt, Testing in 2 days

Postby Coach » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:25 pm

SDTK wrote:Sorry, Sparky. I disagree but I think there may be a miscommunication here. In the event that an elevator is sandwiched between rooms,

You mean stair?

and does not provide direct access to exterior grade, but only provides a door to the corridor at grade level,

That, in and of itself is a major error. Stairs must exit to grade. Read the program/code again.

They don't provide us with a sample in the test?

Of course not. Was that tongue-in-cheek?

This test is , in part, intended to determine our ability to provide a safe exit for inhabitants. The exit door from the corridor near the rear stair is not only "easier" it is safer and more efficient in comparison to forcing people to enter a stairwell before exiting. I recognize that NCARB does not enforce all code requirements for the sake of this test, but when a portion of our score is based on corridor efficiency, I have to wonder if the cost of an additional door outweighs the benefit of a more appropriately placed exit at grade level.

This test is bout following the program and using good design logic.

There needs to be a visible connection from CR to MP, as well as R

Huh?

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Re: BL - 1st attempt, Testing in 2 days

Postby Sparky83 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:00 pm

SDTK wrote:
Sparky83 wrote:
SDTK wrote:
Sparky83 wrote:
SDTK wrote:Hello,
Here is my first attempt at the BL vignette. Some questions I have are:

- Only doors exiting the building/lobby/corridor need to swing out? Correct.On the ground floor, if a stair is sandwiched for some reason, and only has a single door into the corridor, shouldn't it swing into the corridor? NO!! That's not how it works in the real world, and I would assume NCARB prefers an exit door to follow the path of travel. This is also why the corridors are 6' wide, so an open 3' door allows for a 3' path remaining No, that's NOT how it works in the real world. Those are doors, NOT exit doors. Please learn the difference. Sorry, Sparky. I disagree but I think there may be a miscommunication here. In the event that an elevator is sandwiched between rooms, and does not provide direct access to exterior grade, but only provides a door to the corridor at grade level, that door would be a part of the exit route and would swing in the path of travel... it would swing into the corridor (only at grade level or whatever level has the exit discharge). Every other level, the door would swing into the stair, as that would be the path of travel. I have responded to this building department plan check comment in the past.NOOOOOO! A grade level door to the stair swings INTO the stair...EVERY time. NO exceptions. Exterior door at grade from stair swings to the outside....and elevators don't have doors.
- Is there a minimum room dimension? I kept everything at least 10' minimum in one dimension, but if I'm in a bind, can less suffice? Yes, but the minimum recommended room proportion is 2:1.
- What is the rule of thumb for window placement and sizes? I just quickly dropped in windows between 6-10 feet wide where needed. That works.
- My visual connection from Reception to Game Room is not ideal, but would this be a point deduction as shown? Yes. A person inside R must be able to see the GR entry. That means the door.
- Could the Childrens Room's 2nd door exit out of the building if necessary? It isn't necessary.And in the same way, could the Multi-Purpose's 2nd door be located along the corridor, like the other door, as long as there is 50% diagonal separation? Yes, but your MP has only 1 exit. Exit doors MUST swing in the direction of egress.
- Just want to verify that the area of the lobby does not count towards the total maximum circulation area percentage? The program does not mention a maximum circulation percentage. It says maximum corridor percentage. A lobby is not a corridor.

Thank you in advance!

Lobby proportions are terrible. OK
Double doors are not needed because egress capacity is not in the program. OK, this was done in the NCARB passing solution. Would this be a reduction?
Possibly, and you won't have a sample to look at in the testing room. NCARB provides passing examples, not perfect examples. Their passing solutions contain errors.
They don't provide us with a sample in the test?
The exterior exit near the east stair is redundant. The stair IS an exit. This door would be easier to access from the corridor, than the exit door in the stair... This was also done in the NCARB solution It's not about what is easier. Your way costs more too. See above. This test is , in part, intended to determine our ability to provide a safe exit for inhabitants. The exit door from the corridor near the rear stair is not only "easier" it is safer and more efficient in comparison to forcing people to enter a stairwell before exiting. I recognize that NCARB does not enforce all code requirements for the sake of this test, but when a portion of our score is based on corridor efficiency, I have to wonder if the cost of an additional door outweighs the benefit of a more appropriately placed exit at grade level.
Why does CR have 2 doors? How does a person in R see BOTH? There needs to be a visible connection from CR to MP, as well as R
Logically EE belongs on the lower level. I couldn't make it fit, program allows for it on either level You couldn't? You're the designer. If someone has already laid out their general building arrangement, and the addition of the EE room on level 1 would require a complete redesign of that level, and subsequently the level above, it should be acceptable to locate the EE room on level 2 in an effort to save time. NCARB makes plenty of mistakes, but I don't believe they forgot to list a required level for EE in their program.
Avoid L-shaped rooms. Would love to, but there is no penalty for proposing this Prove it. I don't work for NCARB. If they have specified that we are to avoid L-shaped rooms, you could just reference where they have stated this.
See exit comment about MP above. OK
Cannot see any windows..interior or exterior. They are there, This forum does not allow larger files for better clarity Other people manage. You can mark up your upload too.
Check area of SM. Looks too big.
Thank you, Sparky


Again, thank you, Sparky.

ALL interior doors swing INTO stairs. Grade level stair doors swing to the exterior. The only exception is a stair that cannot exit to the exterior. In that case there is a stair exit passage, that is basically an extension of the stair that leads to an exit. A stair exit passage is beyond the scope of this vignette.
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Re: BL - 1st attempt, Testing in 2 days

Postby SDTK » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:47 pm

Just to follow up... I passed this exam, which was taken prior to most of the comments in this thread being made. I am now done with the ARE's, passing 6 of the 7 tests in 3 months on 1st attempt.

- If anyone is curious, I drew my door INTO the stair from the corridor at level 1, since I was able to provide direct access from the stair to the exterior.
- I drew a double door at the entry, couldn't help it. Looked ridiculous to have just a single 3' door for this size of a building.
- I provided an exit-to-exterior door at the "rear" end of the corridor, though it was adjacent to the rear stair which also had an exit to exterior. You can argue that this is redundant, I argue it is safer for egress to not force people into the stair before exiting.
- My second level exterior walls were located directly above the 1st level exterior walls in most locations, except where I had an obvious setback for unused floor area on level 2. This made it pretty easy to make sure there was no overhang when viewing the underlay of L1. So dangerous, I know. I guess I live life on the (floor level) edge.
- I had 2 dead end corridors that were 19'-6" long, measured to the face of the closer corridor wall.

Thanks again for all the help. I will try to periodically contribute what I learned this past year.
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Re: BL - 1st attempt, Testing in 2 days

Postby SDTK » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:28 pm

Coach wrote:
SDTK wrote:Sorry, Sparky. I disagree but I think there may be a miscommunication here. In the event that an elevator is sandwiched between rooms,

You mean stair?
Yes, apologies, typing fast.

and does not provide direct access to exterior grade, but only provides a door to the corridor at grade level,

That, in and of itself is a major error. Stairs must exit to grade. Read the program/code again.
Sometimes programs change, I wanted to be prepared for any situation.

They don't provide us with a sample in the test?

Of course not. Was that tongue-in-cheek?
Surprisingly they did provide me with a sample, it wasn't much help though, just a big open lot titled "Are you sure you want to exit the exam?".

This test is , in part, intended to determine our ability to provide a safe exit for inhabitants. The exit door from the corridor near the rear stair is not only "easier" it is safer and more efficient in comparison to forcing people to enter a stairwell before exiting. I recognize that NCARB does not enforce all code requirements for the sake of this test, but when a portion of our score is based on corridor efficiency, I have to wonder if the cost of an additional door outweighs the benefit of a more appropriately placed exit at grade level.

This test is bout following the program and using good design logic.
"Using good design logic", as you say, is a pretty general blanket statement which could be equated with my longer description. I would argue that a "safe" design is a "good" design. My understanding was that if anything, the ARE's test our ability to provide a "safe" design... which falls under the "good" design umbrella you referenced.

There needs to be a visible connection from CR to MP, as well as R

Huh?
In my fridge, I prefer to see the Cool Ranch, Mud Pie, and Rhubarb on the same shelf. It was just a personal request, you may disregard.

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