Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Ramp, Stair, & Roof Vignettes and Multiple Choice

Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Jburto » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:04 pm

Question regarding using the cut stair, do you only use and show a cut stair on the lower level plan? And the upper level plan you would show the entire stair because you would or could possible see it all? or do you use a cut stair on both plans?

Testing Monday and just got confused with the how to use the cut stair.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Sparky83 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:15 pm

Jburto wrote:Question regarding using the cut stair, do you only use and show a cut stair on the lower level plan? And the upper level plan you would show the entire stair because you would or could possible see it all? or do you use a cut stair on both plans?

Testing Monday and just got confused with the how to use the cut stair.

Use the cut-stair on both plans or not at all. If not at all, show everything on the upper level.
ALWAYS practice with the cut-stair.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Jburto » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:49 am

Thank you, I have been practicing with the cut stair at both levels but then got questioning how I was showing it. Makes me feel better that I'm showing it correctly.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby cellador82 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:33 am

This may or may not have been really good advice for when I took my exam, I cannot disclose. Thanks for posting this!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby mnichol5 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:18 pm

Didn't want anyone to miss this:

Here's one classic example...


Wow! What a rabbit hole of a conversation thread.

I think an appropriate response to the original questions regarding the "classic example" that coach refers to should have been:

When trying to solve this vignette only on the second floor you may neglect information that is on the first floor. In this example there is a door on the ground floor layer that swings out into the lower left hand corner--which is a logical spot for a landing. (It would have been helpful to include a picture of this ground floor layer to illustrate that point)

Since the solution tried to solve the vignette solely on the second floor layer, this door swing was not visible and a railing was drawn against the wall where there actually is a door thus blocking egress, which is a major mistake.

Hope that sheds light to the cryptic and quite small picture provided by coach.

Side notes:

The railing that blocks the door does not have to be continuous along the wall as shown in the "classic example". In fact, this solution is very easily solved by only drawing on the second floor layer--as long as one checks between layers, which I'm sure everyone does with zeal and paranoia at the time of the test.

However, as others have pointed out, you may not get a vignette that you can solve entirely on the second floor layer--better put, you most likley won't get a vignette as easy as NCARB 4.0's practice vignette for the BDCS Stair Design on your actual exam. A stair will most likely wrap under itself or need to use the cut stair tool. Don't be stubborn or optimistic, learn how to use it. It's easy. Go here to find out how:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf1LWjrMZUg

Lastly, I'm sure those who didn't know how to wield hammers and preferred using rocks for construction thought hammers sucked too.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby jimsarr » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:22 pm

If you can draw the entire stair on Level 2, do you need to also draw something on Level 1? Or leave it blank? I passed this vignette twice, and my third attempt they failed me. The only thing I did different was draw the entire stair on Level 2 (since you could see it all), and then I also drew what you can see on Level 1 (using the cut stair tool).
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby skatz » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:38 am

Hello,

So one of my questions was going to be how to use this 'cut stair tool' as i have played around with it and don't get it... i get when to use it and everything... typically cut at 4'-0" if the stairs are going up and you're on the lower/current level... but this tool in the ncarb program is a pain....do i need to put height of the stair on each side of it... i guess i am wondering if there is a video on how to use this tool correctly... the section but just lets you see your solution but i don't get the cut stair tool

also if you have an area of refuge, which i find 90% of the stair vignettes do... is it safe to say always use a 48" wide stair plus 4" on each side for handrails since stairway CLEAR needs to be 48"? may need to be larger if your occupant load requires but basically when they give you a min stair width of 44" that's 'never' really the case?
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:22 pm

skatz wrote:typically cut at 4'-0"

No.

but this tool in the ncarb program is a pain

It's not hard. Practice.

....do i need to put height of the stair on each side of it...

Of course.

i guess i am wondering if there is a video on how to use this tool correctly... the section but just lets you see your solution but i don't get the cut stair tool

It's just like drawing a standard stair run.

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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby skatz » Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:42 pm

Thanks for the response... are there directions on how to install the 'alternates' i see the post is locked and can't comment on it... what happens once you get to this page?

http://web.archive.org/web/201008251443 ... Vignettes/
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby skatz » Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:11 pm

Thank you again!

So if i use a cut stair on the first level going up to the second level... if you said 4'-0" is too low to cut it at... what elevation do you typically recommend cutting it at? also the railings along that cut stair... which level do i draw those on? 1 or 2?
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:15 pm

skatz wrote:So if i use a cut stair on the first level going up to the second level... if you said 4'-0" is too low to cut it at...

I didn't say it was too low, although it could be too low.

what elevation do you typically recommend cutting it at?

Cut must be above all landings for lower level doors.

also the railings along that cut stair... which level do i draw those on? 1 or 2?

Rails go with treads on both levels. Stop at cut line.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby skatz » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:55 am

Thank you so much for your quick responses

so essentially i will have two different sets railings along one flight of stairs? one set on level one below the cut stair and one set above on level 2 above the cut stair?
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:36 pm

That's how cuts have always been done. Part of the flight is on one level and part is on the other.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby btripp34 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:20 am

Can someone tell me at what point on the stair you should use the cut stair tool on this vignette? Real practice is a little more obvious, but for the exam, should you do it between the first and 2nd landing and some between the 2nd and third landing. If its a switchback, its more obvious. thanks
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:59 am

btripp34 wrote:Can someone tell me at what point on the stair you should use the cut stair tool on this vignette? Real practice is a little more obvious, but for the exam, should you do it between the first and 2nd landing and some between the 2nd and third landing. If its a switchback, its more obvious. thanks

I answered that question a few posts up.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby surfgirl » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:51 pm

It's sort of odd though that the ARE Study guide (published August 2015) shows the sample passing solution all drawn on the 2nd floor, with a note on the first floor stating that "Note: All necessary information included on second floor plan." And the sample failing solution uses the cut stair tool.

Also, posted on the google plus page on 9/25/2016:

Nick NCARB - Moderator
I would recommend practicing with the stair cut tool in case you need to use it on the actual exam. If you don't use the stair cut tool, you can draw your solution on the ground floor or second floor. This is totally up to you. Both will be scored the same.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby arearcher » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:18 am

surfgirl wrote:Also, posted on the google plus page on 9/25/2016:


Probably not my place to say, but I would imagine the direct language in their published study guide supersedes what someone says on the NCARB Google Plus page, regardless of whether they're associated with NCARB. Like others have also pointed out, the recommended convention seems the same as what I learned when you draft things by hand or in CAD. You wouldn't draw a stair on a first floor plan and then omit it from the second floor plan because if it's not shown on the second floor plan, how would you know whether there's a stair there?
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Joseluis778 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:31 pm

tekkenlee wrote:this youtube video is by ncarb, it explain the cut stair tool really well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf1LWjrMZUg


Great video! Thanks!!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby jigabobo » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:31 am

I completely agree the cut stair tool is critical and after reading people's comments i see why NCARB is using it in an ARE exam and it's bc there are potential architects out there that do not understand basic drafting and how to properly depict items on 2D drawings or how to read 2D drawings. A floor plan is a section, no different than a wall section except for 1 item, a floor plan section cut line is horizontal rather than vertical like a wall section. This is why when you see a door on a floor plan there is a 'hole' in the wall; a floor plan is typically drawn with the section cut line at 36 to 48" AFF and for this reason the cut line goes thru the door and the opening in the wall for the door so you see no wall but rather an opening with a cut thru the door and the door swing is shown for reference. So with this being said if you drew a stair assembly on a first level floor plan how could you ever see the opening of a door on the first level and yet also see the landing of a stair that is at 12'-3" AFF!?! The landing would be behind your field of view. The fact that people cant realize this is ample reason why NCARB includes this basic knowledge of drafting within their test. I will always use the cut stair tool no matter what anyone out there says. And this is my 6th exam and i would say i have found more incorrect 'examples'/videos for these 3 vignettes that are full of mistakes and bad advice than any of the other vignettes previous so be careful with what you study from and consider to be correct. One example, the ramp vignette program clearly states under the landings section 'the least dimension in the direction of travel shall be 60 inches' therefore you should NEVER have a ramp landing that is smaller than 60" x 60", i've seen numerous 'examples' that show landings with 44" x whatever, i would consider that a MAJOR error.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby jigabobo » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:12 am

i took the test yesterday, 2 things, def practice using the cut stair tool and brush up on you arch history.
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