Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Ramp, Stair, & Roof Vignettes and Multiple Choice

Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:19 pm


Here's one classic example.

Image
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby lukebran » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:19 pm

Are you saying the example should use the cut stair tool to replace the stair connecting the 1'-9" landing and 9'-4" landing?
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby lukebran » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:54 pm

Or the handrail in front of the door at the 1st level... got it.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby smartstone122 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:42 pm

I see. It takes a few times to get used to the cut stair tool and understand it. Glad Coach took the time to show an example…the handrail. Easy to miss elements on the first layer.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby caitiemg » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:46 pm

smartstone122 wrote:I see. It takes a few times to get used to the cut stair tool and understand it. Glad Coach took the time to show an example…the handrail. Easy to miss elements on the first layer.

Can someone elaborate on this handrail thing- I don't see how it's so enlightening. Is it that it's obstructing the 1st floor door, because that plan is showing the upper level. Sorry to be dense about it.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby laurstar » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:09 pm

caitiemg wrote:
smartstone122 wrote:I see. It takes a few times to get used to the cut stair tool and understand it. Glad Coach took the time to show an example…the handrail. Easy to miss elements on the first layer.

Can someone elaborate on this handrail thing- I don't see how it's so enlightening. Is it that it's obstructing the 1st floor door, because that plan is showing the upper level. Sorry to be dense about it.

yes. coach is basically saying that if you rely on showing the stair on only the 2nd level, you may miss that there is a door on the mezzanine level. i think he is doing it to advise the naysayers that using the cut stair tool in every situation is a good strategy
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby caitiemg » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:03 pm

laurstar wrote:
caitiemg wrote:
smartstone122 wrote:I see. It takes a few times to get used to the cut stair tool and understand it. Glad Coach took the time to show an example…the handrail. Easy to miss elements on the first layer.

Can someone elaborate on this handrail thing- I don't see how it's so enlightening. Is it that it's obstructing the 1st floor door, because that plan is showing the upper level. Sorry to be dense about it.

yes. coach is basically saying that if you rely on showing the stair on only the 2nd level, you may miss that there is a door on the mezzanine level. i think he is doing it to advise the naysayers that using the cut stair tool in every situation is a good strategy


Ahhh, the mezzanine! I thought they were referring to the ground floor and I didn't see the connection. It's clear now! As always, thanks!!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby kevinshort1224 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:58 am

or you could just switch to the ground floor layer and double check your work (which is prob good practice in any case)...
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby kgc1980 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:49 am

I get the idea of using the stair cut tool to prevent this type of error. However, on this NCARB practice exam, there is only 2 floors, and the stairs have no reason to overlap. My question is: what happens if the entire stair is drawn on the lower plan? All elevations are indicated from 0'-0" to 12'-3" as per the requirements. Do we NEED to use the cut tool? Or just a good method of checking our work? And is drawing the entire solution on either the lower floor or upper floor acceptable?

I don't want to over complicate my solutions if its not needed.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:58 am

kgc1980 wrote:My question is: what happens if the entire stair is drawn on the lower plan?

You fail.

Do we NEED to use the cut tool?

If there is no overlap, you don't need to, but I recommend that you do.

And is drawing the entire solution on either the lower floor or upper floor acceptable?

If you show the entire solution on one level it must be the upper level.

I don't want to over complicate my solutions if its not needed.

Using cuts isn't complicated, it's prudent. Every problem can be solved with cuts, few without.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby jokermtb » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:25 pm

I've always found it useful to draw sketch circles in all the door openings on level 1, so when you are on level 2, you can see your sketch circles showing the doors - thus preventing mistakes.

Initially, I was a cut-stair naysayer, but you really should use them for all your practice exams for if you find yourself needing to use cut-stairs during the actual exam, and you've not practiced it before, you'll get all jammed up and probably fail.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby jlafreniere » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:37 pm

Coach, you have the landings in this larger than the stair width, is this necessary? I know 60" is needed in ramp landings but I thought the stair only needs the same as the width of the stair.

Thanks!!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:26 am

jlafreniere wrote:Coach, you have the landings in this larger than the stair width, is this necessary?

I didn't draw that solution. It's not a good solution, which is the whole point of this thread.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby doba14 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:25 am

Hi Coach / everyone,

Quick question - when using the stair cut tool, what do you do with the handrail since the stair cut tool doesn't automatically cut this as well.... When you draw in the handrail, do you overlap the cut stair symbol a bit?

Also on corners, do you overlap the handrails?

Thanks!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby jokermtb » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:51 pm

You only need to draw handrails to the cut lines (make sure you do the cut stairs on each level!). I usually draw em an inch or two past the cut line just to be on the safe side.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby bksimp » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:06 pm

Question, can handrails encroach into the door clearances 4". I'm specifically speaking of the NCARB 4.0 door at the 1'-9" landing. Can the last railing against the west wall encroach into the 12 push side of the janitors door clearance?
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby tip68 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:53 pm

I have the same question, can the handrail encroach on the required 12" clearance for the mezzanine door. If not, would offsetting the stairs from the wall a ways help this situation?
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby AREwedoneyet? » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:36 am

I also have a question about the cut stair tool response from Coach. I am taking this test in a week (2nd time). The first time I took it, I passed all the vignettes and I certainly did not draw everything on the second level, nor did I use the cut tool. I did exactly as the youtube video instructed and in that video he does everything on the first level. Could someone please explain if something has changed in the grading or why these two things might result in a fail? I understand the careless mistake of running a railing through a door, etc...

I just want to clear this up before I test...

Thanks!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby AREwedoneyet? » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:45 am

Coach and others,

I found the info needed for that question. It says in the NCARB handout that "because the design of the stairs for this particular solution does not obscure other portions of the stair, all necessary information can be created and displayed on the second floor plan. It is not necessary to utilize the "cut stair" tool." Just to clarify, whenever I did these, I would always try to find anyway to not use the cut tool if I didn't have to. Could someone explain why Coach is advocating for its use all the time? I don't want to seem like I am beating a dead horse here, but I am still not clear on the reasons why...

Thanks,
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby iDefy » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:03 pm

I have also taken the test once and had passed this vig. In my case it would have been impossible to pass or even attempt that vig without the cut stair. Since the entire reason of being on this forum is to prepare ourselves for the worst, it would be a good idea to presume that you'll get the vig like I got on my exam (or worse)!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:38 am

AREwedoneyet? wrote:Just to clarify, whenever I did these, I would always try to find anyway to not use the cut tool if I didn't have to.

And what if it's not possible? How much time are you willing to waste?

Could someone explain why Coach is advocating for its use all the time?

Look at the "solution" above for one of the potential major pitfalls.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby hnQ_9999 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:34 pm

tip68 wrote:I have the same question, can the handrail encroach on the required 12" clearance for the mezzanine door. If not, would offsetting the stairs from the wall a ways help this situation?


I think you have the "other guardrail" to take care of this 12" horizontal extension, no need to extend
"this guardrail" to the door clearance.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Sparky83 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:05 pm

bksimp wrote:Question, can handrails encroach into the door clearances 4". I'm specifically speaking of the NCARB 4.0 door at the 1'-9" landing. Can the last railing against the west wall encroach into the 12 push side of the janitors door clearance?

Yes. Rails against a wall (handrail) may encroach in the door clearance.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Sparky83 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:07 pm

AREwedoneyet? wrote:I also have a question about the cut stair tool response from Coach. I am taking this test in a week (2nd time). The first time I took it, I passed all the vignettes and I certainly did not draw everything on the second level, nor did I use the cut tool. I did exactly as the youtube video instructed and in that video he does everything on the first level. According to NCARB, that is a MAJOR error. Their instructions are very clear on this subject. Could someone please explain if something has changed in the grading or why these two things might result in a fail? I understand the careless mistake of running a railing through a door, etc...

I just want to clear this up before I test...

Thanks!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Sparky83 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:09 pm

AREwedoneyet? wrote:Coach and others,

I found the info needed for that question. It says in the NCARB handout that "because the design of the stairs for this particular solution does not obscure other portions of the stair, all necessary information can be created and displayed on the second floor plan. It is not necessary to utilize the "cut stair" tool." Just to clarify, whenever I did these, I would always try to find anyway to not use the cut tool if I didn't have to. Could someone explain why Coach is advocating for its use all the time? I don't want to seem like I am beating a dead horse here, but I am still not clear on the reasons why...

Thanks,

The "why" is because you don't want to be sitting in the testing room and learning how to use the cut-stair. ALWAYS use it when practicing and make your mistakes there. In addition, drawing your solution on both levels (and using the cut-stair properly) is a great way to avoid making mistakes related to door locations on each level. Do you really want to risk a return trip just to take a shortcut in the vignette? ;)
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby alenb » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:51 am

Coach wrote:
Here's one classic example.


Coach,
Where is your image solution for the cut stair, (I can't see one there is an X)
Thanks
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:53 pm

alenb wrote:Where is your image solution for the cut stair, (I can't see one there is an X)

I didn't post one. The point of this thread is to show the pitfalls of not using cuts.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby aking06 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:34 am

You should also learn how to use cut stair in case your solution overlaps itself. I learned the hard way yesterday during my exam. Fortunately I was able to figure out how to use cut stair which isn't necessarily intuitive. Does NCARB explain anywhere how this function works?
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:22 pm

aking06 wrote:Does NCARB explain anywhere how this function works?

It's basic drafting. Unfortunately, they don't teach it to you guys anymore.
Last edited by Coach on Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: left out an important word
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby ZachAttack » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:30 pm

Coach wrote:
aking06 wrote:Does NCARB explain anywhere how this function works?

It's basic drafting. Unfortunately, they teach it to you guys anymore.


This. I am finding that my exclusive use of Revit is making these vignettes particularly challenging.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:22 pm

Yes. Revit sucks.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Iasonas » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:10 pm

Coach wrote:Yes. Revit sucks.

I llluuuuvvvv this comment Coach. I think that Revit sucks but we have to use it sometimes.
Now on this vignette example that you posted, the railing goes all around. Is it correct to have railing continue around landings (I know it is not when we have a door of course). But if it is just a landing turning a corner, do we have to have a railing continue? I was cutting my railings one foot beyond the nosing.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Coach » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:52 pm

Iasonas wrote:Is it correct to have railing continue around landings


No.
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby anarkyll » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:36 pm

Iasonas wrote:
Coach wrote:Yes. Revit sucks.

I llluuuuvvvv this comment Coach. I think that Revit sucks but we have to use it sometimes.
Now on this vignette example that you posted, the railing goes all around. Is it correct to have railing continue around landings (I know it is not when we have a door of course). But if it is just a landing turning a corner, do we have to have a railing continue? I was cutting my railings one foot beyond the nosing.


Maybe he won't say it, but the point of his image was exactly that - the railing was blocking the door bc the cutaway of the stair (or lack thereof) was not indicating the level below
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby tekkenlee » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:38 am

this youtube video is by ncarb, it explain the cut stair tool really well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf1LWjrMZUg
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby jimsarr » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:15 pm

Thank you for this Coach, i totally made the mistake and didn't see it. Now I know!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby tekkenlee » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:30 pm

Thank you for this thread. my intermediate landing was at a odd elevation. I couldn't have passed my exam without the cut stair tool!!!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby oeil21 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:34 pm

NCARB isn't very clear if they will be judging this vignette as if it were drafted or modeled. If you think about this being drafted vs. being modeled the use of the cut stair tool and showing elements on their correct layer makes more sense. It's tricky since the tools aren't like any drafting program I've used and much more like those of a modeling program (unless there is a "set height" tool in AutoCad no one ever told me about). And I was taught how to draft coach, thank you very much!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby tinadatabase » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:10 pm

tekkenlee wrote:this youtube video is by ncarb, it explain the cut stair tool really well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf1LWjrMZUg


It's been a while since I've seen this video. This is a good one, it even walks you through what to do with the handrails at the cut lines. Thanks!
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Re: Want to know why you should always use cut stair?

Postby Guelord89 » Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:01 pm

tinadatabase wrote:
tekkenlee wrote:this youtube video is by ncarb, it explain the cut stair tool really well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf1LWjrMZUg


It's been a while since I've seen this video. This is a good one, it even walks you through what to do with the handrails at the cut lines. Thanks!



Yeah, this video explains it well indeed.
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