Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Site Grading & Site Design Vignettes and Multiple Choice

Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby ThomKat » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:02 pm

Hi all, I have uploaded my first attempt at the Site Grading Vignette (NCARB 4.0). I take SPD in 2 weeks. Please review and let me know if I have made an error. Thank you!! :)
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby Sparky83 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:24 am

How did you verify the minimum slope?
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby highway6 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:19 am

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong...
but I believe your 107 contour is too close to your display.
I believe you have to maintain the max slope there as well.... so if you normally have 5' circles to separate 1' grades, between the display and wrapping contour, you need 2.5' separation since it's 6" elevation change.
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby Sparky83 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:45 am

highway6 wrote:Somebody correct me if I'm wrong...
but I believe your 107 contour is too close to your display. VERY wrong.
I believe you have to maintain the max slope there as well.... so if you normally have 5' circles to separate 1' grades, between the display and wrapping contour, you need 2.5' separation since it's 6" elevation change.


grading section.JPG
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby highway6 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:13 pm

Not sure how your graphic proves me wrong, much less "Very Wrong".
In your first example, that describes exactly what I'm talking about.
In your 2nd example, the finished floor is 18" above the nearest contour..... Most people, including the original poster, show the finished floor 6" above the wrap-around contour... Placing a 107'-6" finished floor right adjacent to a 107 contour gets you a 6" cliff.. Placing it 6" away and only 6" above the contour line gets you 100% slope.
To my understanding, the connection between contour and slab must still abide by the 2-20% slope.
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby Sparky83 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:42 pm

highway6 wrote:Not sure how your graphic proves me wrong, much less "Very Wrong". The section shown makes it quite clear.
In your first example, that describes exactly what I'm talking about. No, it does not.
In your 2nd example, the finished floor is 18" above the nearest contour..... No. Not at all. The nearest contour is AT the slab edge. 108 traces the edge of the display.Most people, including the original poster, show the finished floor 6" above the wrap-around contour... Yes, if the contour line traces the edge of the display.Placing a 107'-6" finished floor right adjacent to a 107 contour gets you a 6" cliff.. NO. That's not a "cliff". It's a slab 6" above grade.Placing it 6" away and only 6" above the contour line gets you 100% slope. Why would you do that?
To my understanding, the connection between contour and slab must still abide by the 2-20% slope. Yes, they should, and in my sections, they do.

If the nearest contour line is 2'-6" away from the slab edge, you must have an even contour, not +6". THAT's what the section shows.
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby highway6 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:09 pm

I see now your 108 contour is right AT the slab. Still wrong in my opinion.

That's a 6" vertical drop off from slab to adjacent ground. Vertical drop off does not equal slope between 2-20%.
By your interpretation, you could have 108 contour right AT the slab edge, and a finished floor anything above 108.
If a 6" drop off is fine, why not a 6' or a 16' drop off ?

Also, to clarify, I'm not saying it has to be 2'-6" away. That is only the MIN. it can be away.. the 20%. On the other end, your 107 contour can't be more than 25' away from your 107'-6" slab as that would be your 2% slope.
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby Sparky83 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:42 am

highway6 wrote:I see now your 108 contour is right AT the slab. Still wrong in my opinion.

That's a 6" vertical drop off from slab to adjacent ground. Vertical drop off does not equal slope between 2-20%. Good freaking Lord! A slab edge is not grading.
By your interpretation, you could have 108 contour right AT the slab edge, and a finished floor anything above 108. Yep, but in this case NCARB requires 6" above surrounding grade.
If a 6" drop off is fine, why not a 6' or a 16' drop off ? ...because the program says 6". See below.

Also, to clarify, I'm not saying it has to be 2'-6" away. That is only the MIN. it can be away.. the 20%. On the other end, your 107 contour can't be more than 25' away from your 107'-6" slab as that would be your 2% slope.


Program
A steam engine Locomotive Display is to be located within a
fenced area in a city park. The park is surrounded by private
properties on all sides.

1. Place the Locomotive Display on the site within the
building limit lines.

Regrade the site to create a level area for the
Locomotive Display.

Indicate the finish floor elevation of the Locomotive
Display. The finish floor elevation must be 6” above
the nearest contour line.


2. Regrade the site so that water will flow around and
away from the Locomotive Display.

The slope of the regraded portions of the site shall be
at least 2 percent and no more than 20 percent.

Contour lines between property lines and building
limit lines may be manipulated.

3. The existing smokestack, rocks, and trees shall not
be disturbed.

4. Changes in site topography not required for proper
drainage should be avoided.
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby highway6 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:31 am

You make good points... That being said, I'm not just pulling this info out of my hiney.

In the Dorf videos, He explains it like I do.. He assumes the dirt is sloping up to the corner of the slab.. and he says you have to take into consideration the slope between last contour line and slab edge.

I'm just passing on the info from the Dorf Video and ultimately, I trust the Norman Dorf's video series and his interpretation over yours.
Fin.

To the original poster.. better safe than sorry.. keep your wrap around contour 2'-6" away as you know that will not be a wrong way to go about it.
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby Sparky83 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:42 am

highway6 wrote:You make good points... That being said, I'm not just pulling this info out of my hiney.

In the Dorf videos, He explains it like I do.. He assumes the dirt is sloping up to the corner of the slab.. No, he did not.and he says you have to take into consideration the slope between last contour line and slab edge. Correct. The last contour line is AT the slab edge.
Do you still not understand the part about the slab being 6" ABOVE grade?


I'm just passing on the info from the Dorf Video and ultimately, I trust the Norman Dorf's video series and his interpretation over yours.You can deny basic geometry all you want. You'll still be wrong.
Fin.

To the original poster.. better safe than sorry.. keep your wrap around contour 2'-6" away as you know that will not be a wrong way to go about it. See the section cut above.
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby highway6 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:53 am

Yo Sparky..

I literally watched the video again less than 10 minutes ago before posting to verify that this video was where I learned that bit of information.
Here is a screen grab from the Dorf Video where he is discussing that it only has to be half the 5' circle away because the elevation difference is only 6"

I'm done with this..
People can either put it MIN 2'-6" away and be 100% sure they are not wrong (In case Dorf, the former grader of vignettes, is correct).. or they can listen to you and needlessly put it right up on the slab and not only potentially get the slope question wrong, but also sets up the chance where they might actually put one of those contour points inside/under the landmark (which would be very bad and very wrong).
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby Sparky83 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:00 am

highway6 wrote:Yo Sparky..

I literally watched the video again less than 10 minutes ago before posting to verify that this video was where I learned that bit of information.
Here is a screen grab from the Dorf Video where he is discussing that it only has to be half the 5' circle away because the elevation difference is only 6"

I'm done with this..
People can either put it MIN 2'-6" away and be 100% sure they are not wrong (In case Dorf, the former grader of vignettes, is correct).. or they can listen to you and needlessly put it right up on the slab and not only potentially get the slope question wrong, but also sets up the chance where they might actually put one of those contour points inside/under the landmark (which would be very bad and very wrong).

As expected. You still deny basic geometry.
The video covers Site Grading 3.1. Totally different program. Dorf passed away before 4.0 began. I met him, and took his class on Site Grading in person. I've been doing this for over 30 years, and you really don't know what your're talking about.
Good luck.
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby highway6 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:13 am

So you don't deny that he specifically calls for a 2'-6" between final contour and slab edge... You don't deny that is what is shown in the screenshot of the video.
Instead you imply it doesn't matter because the parameters between 3.1 and 4.0 changed. And possibly you are right that the parameters changed and that it does no longer matter... But that does not change the fact that in the dorf video, he teaches that the separation matters.

Again.. why risk it.
Do you also deny that putting the contour right up smack against the landmark could possibly lead to screwing up and putting contour points inside, and therefore under, the landmark? Do you deny that if you did this, your solution would be in trouble ?
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Re: Grading Vignette - First Attempt!

Postby ThomKat » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:42 pm

Hey guys, thanks for the feed back. I put the contour right on the slab edge because that's how the example was done in the NCARB Youtube video for this vignette (see image below) so I assumed that was correct.
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