Raise after license?

Re: Raise after license?

Postby Bailey15 » Wed May 17, 2017 7:37 am

vrcat25 wrote:
Bailey15 wrote:I recently became licensed and heard from co-workers that I should expect a bump in pay. I got $3k. Very grateful, but I was expecting more, something that would really cap off this process with a super big positive because these 7 tests are hell. I am right at the mean salary for my level and in my region with the raise. I suppose you could say I was very well compensated as an intern but it would have been nice to get a bit more since this is a major milestone.


How much were you expecting? This is not a rhetorical questions, just curious about how much it would have taken before you are happy? How much would have been too much? The reason i ask is because it may be worth negotiating. If you think it's worth 5k then you could possibly talk with them and see if they would be willing to meet your needs. You don't have to give them an ultimatum, you could just explain to them that you would like more and see what you would need to do to get to that point. As you mentioned, these tests are hell and EXPENSIVE. Even if you pass all 7 the first time, that's over $1500 in tests plus study material. I would think that the incentive would be a little greater too. Now on the other hand, do you think it's worth a 10k bump? Have you considered asking if they would give you a share in the firm? IMHO, it's definitely worth talking with the principals.


I heard from previous employees that worked at this firm that they received a raise of $10k for becoming licensed. This happened a handful of years ago so slightly different circumstances, but thus why I was a little underwhelmed by $3k. We have experienced a high level of turnover at our firm over the past 5 years and I am now one of the employees that has been here the longest. Let's just say, I have started to weigh other options now that the exams are behind me and I have already been told that another local firm would pay me about $15k more than what I am making now. I have also spoken to two different recruiters that have stated their data shows that newly licensed architects are much better compensated when they decide to take a new opportunity at another firm.

Regardless, the best advice I got from a former co-worker was to approach every position with a set of goals in mind. Once you reach your goals, re-evaluate what you would like to achieve next and that will help determine your next step. Can you accomplish those goals where you currently are or will another company suit your needs best? That's what I am currently doing, making a strategic plan that reflects my current goals that will aid in my decision process.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby ekelsey15 » Wed May 17, 2017 7:45 am

Bailey- Keep in mind its not all about the money. $15k more would be great, unless you hate where you work. I've had my share of jobs in the past that maybe paid more, but between the types of work and the office politics involved it made me hate my life.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby nickedemus » Wed May 17, 2017 9:47 am

Bailey15 wrote:
vrcat25 wrote:
Bailey15 wrote:Regardless, the best advice I got from a former co-worker was to approach every position with a set of goals in mind. Once you reach your goals, re-evaluate what you would like to achieve next and that will help determine your next step. Can you accomplish those goals where you currently are or will another company suit your needs best? That's what I am currently doing, making a strategic plan that reflects my current goals that will aid in my decision process.


Good strategy.

I think I'm going to ask for a hefty raise. Worst they can do is say no!
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby Coach » Wed May 17, 2017 1:46 pm

nickedemus wrote:Worst they can do is say no!

Uh, no.

I actually think a lot of principals sometimes dread employees getting licensed because of the salary expectations. And since your responsibilities and output won't materially change in most firms, it doesn't make economic sense.

It's not uncommon for new licensees to be shown the door. Some principals believe they're doing you a favor, and in most cases, they actually are.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby nickedemus » Wed May 17, 2017 2:22 pm

Coach wrote:
nickedemus wrote:Worst they can do is say no!

Uh, no.

I actually think a lot of principals sometimes dread employees getting licensed because of the salary expectations. And since your responsibilities and output won't materially change in most firms, it doesn't make economic sense.

It's not uncommon for new licensees to be shown the door. Some principals believe they're doing you a favor, and in most cases, they actually are.


They won't do that to me. They'll just say no, or make a counter offer. I've done it before.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby macjacket » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:42 am

No raise for me.... yet. I work for a small firm and they did give me a 3K bonus for getting licensed. However, a headhunter reached out to me recently to get me in touch with a firm that was looking for someone with my skill and experience. The interview has turned in to an offer that is a 24K salary bump, AIA & NCARB dues, better health insurance benefits and 2% more 401K match (not to mention, it's most definitely a better city to live in).

Looks like a move is in my immediate future.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby ekelsey15 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:05 am

Congrats!

A few of my bosses have shown excitement about me finishing the ARE but I am not licensed yet. I would hope I get something to stay here but I may start looking at other firms also.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby rwwon » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:42 pm

Coach wrote:I actually think a lot of principals sometimes dread employees getting licensed because of the salary expectations. And since your responsibilities and output won't materially change in most firms, it doesn't make economic sense.
It's not uncommon for new licensees to be shown the door. Some principals believe they're doing you a favor, and in most cases, they actually are. [/color]


So very true. I've noticed some firms have a revolving door of low salaried, lower skilled labor because the few at the top make the hard decisions, interface with owners, and red line everything for their drafters. Their business model works well with that setup, and those who try to hold out without a clear promotion track just get stuck. Your license is still only one part of your resume - people can still be bad at their job with our without a license, and it shows. Treat your license like a bargaining chip and not an entitlement, and it can take you far.

macjacket wrote:No raise for me.... yet. I work for a small firm and they did give me a 3K bonus for getting licensed. However, a headhunter reached out to me recently to get me in touch with a firm that was looking for someone with my skill and experience. The interview has turned in to an offer that is a 24K salary bump, AIA & NCARB dues, better health insurance benefits and 2% more 401K match (not to mention, it's most definitely a better city to live in).

Looks like a move is in my immediate future.


The American Dream is alive! Haha, that is awesome macjacket.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby corbismyhomeboy » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:41 am

rwwon wrote:
Coach wrote:I actually think a lot of principals sometimes dread employees getting licensed because of the salary expectations. And since your responsibilities and output won't materially change in most firms, it doesn't make economic sense.
It's not uncommon for new licensees to be shown the door. Some principals believe they're doing you a favor, and in most cases, they actually are. [/color]


But Coach, aren't they getting paid more now for your work because you're licensed, and then therefore can charge more for your services?

It is so common at my firm for people to leave of their own volition about a year out from licensure that the firm now refuses to pay for any IDP/AXP/ARE/AIA licensing fees or new study materials. They use to pay for the $75 NCARB renewal fee, but took that away too. I kind of don't blame them for it, but it makes it really hard for the firm to keep newly licensed architects around. It becomes a vicious circle where people finish IDP and either don't want to get licensed because they don't want to pay out of pocket for it and therefore go to a firm with better support. Or they suck it up and get licensed with their own dollars, notice that everyone else they know at their level outside the firm is getting a raise/bonus, and leave for a higher salary.

To add to this, I think it can sometimes create a weird dynamic in the office when a younger person is licensed and has a PM that is not. Technically, the PA is supposed to be learning from the PM, but technically the PA is expected to be more liable and cognizant of life safety/code issues than the PM. It turns into a weird situation where you end up having to correct the PM's work and adjust the client's expectations.
Last edited by corbismyhomeboy on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby nickedemus » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:03 am

corbismyhomeboy wrote:But Coach, aren't they getting paid more now for your work because you're licensed, and then therefore can charge more for your services?


It could make them look good in proposals for future work, but your licensure wouldn't change the work breakdown structure or the budget for existing projects. So, if you, licensed architect, draft for 15 hours one week, your firm will bill the client at the drafter rate, not the licensed architect rate. Otherwise, the client would start screaming.

This is of course assuming that your firm plans and budget their finances competently. Architects do have a bad rap when it comes to managing money (hence dreading the licensure of their employees). That's why I work for engineers. ;)
Project structure is almost identical, but they're really on the ball financially and legally.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby Coach » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:18 pm

corbismyhomeboy wrote:
rwwon wrote:
Coach wrote:I actually think a lot of principals sometimes dread employees getting licensed because of the salary expectations. And since your responsibilities and output won't materially change in most firms, it doesn't make economic sense.
It's not uncommon for new licensees to be shown the door. Some principals believe they're doing you a favor, and in most cases, they actually are. [/color]


But Coach, aren't they getting paid more now for your work because you're licensed, and then therefore can charge more for your services?

What nick said. Also, it only matters if you're doing the work of a licensed architect.

Your question assumes things are open ended. The typical contract has a fixed fee that is billed based on established rates. The fixed fee cannot go up just because you got licensed -- there is no intrinsic value in that. So, your time can only get billed at a higher rate if you do work that another licensee won't have to do.


It is so common at my firm for people to leave of their own volition about a year out from licensure that the firm now refuses to pay for any IDP/AXP/ARE/AIA licensing fees or new study materials. They use to pay for the $75 NCARB renewal fee, but took that away too. I kind of don't blame them for it, but it makes it really hard for the firm to keep newly licensed architects around.

The firm clearly doesn't want or need more licenses.

To add to this, I think it can sometimes create a weird dynamic in the office when a younger person is licensed and has a PM that is not. Technically, the PA is supposed to be learning from the PM, but technically the PA is expected to be more liable and cognizant of life safety/code issues than the PM. It turns into a weird situation where you end up having to correct the PM's work and adjust the client's expectations.

This assumes a lot about the people involved and how any particular firm uses titles.

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Re: Raise after license?

Postby spiketwig » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:40 pm

When I got licensed I did not get any raise specifically tied to the license, nor does my firm offer a formal salary increase (but there is a modest one-time bonus). What did happen was over the approx 15 months after I became licensed, I got a 5% raise in our regular review cycle, then requested and got an 8% raise off cycle (due to the license, market rates and increased responsibilities and a few other convoluted reasons) and then got another 5% raise on-cycle, for a total increase of about $10,000 in salary over where I was when I was licensed. Ultimately ended up with what seems like an appropriate increase, but it wasn't strictly because of the license (but I also don't think I could have moved into my current role without the license, so it's kind of a chicken and the egg thing).
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby tmston2 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:13 pm

As I stated in this thread, viewtopic.php?f=29&t=49648 , I haven't got licensed yet but my employer did give me a $8k raise about 2 months ago. they said they
see the work I do and wanted to recognize it and know im on the path to being licensed soon. that said, in my mind Im not expecting another raise once im license, only due to the fact there
was some discussion in the raise process were they told "me having a license doesn't make you a good architect, there are people with a license who dont know there head from there you
know wut!" and "just because you are licensed doesn't make you no more today than you knew last week"

Can anyone please (preferably coach answer for me what is a fair market rate in the northern Minnesota area, for some one with 9yrs work exp, 1.5yr construction project manger,
who does all phases of design with minimal ca, build digital models, renders, code review, marketing etc. and only 2 exams left to pass?
thanks
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby ekelsey15 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:03 am

So it is still not official as I have not gotten my number from the state of WI yet, but one of my bosses pulled me into his office friday and gave me some good news. They are changing my pay to salary with a $3k increase. It's not huge but I also typically get 2 bonuses a year, which I was also told we are getting our mid year bonus on our next check. But I would say its a nice increase in pay.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby drummer03 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:36 pm

ekelsey15 wrote:So it is still not official as I have not gotten my number from the state of WI yet, but one of my bosses pulled me into his office friday and gave me some good news. They are changing my pay to salary with a $3k increase. It's not huge but I also typically get 2 bonuses a year, which I was also told we are getting our mid year bonus on our next check. But I would say its a nice increase in pay.



Good for you!
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby introversed » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:33 pm

In the two years I've been at my current firm, my daily responsibilities have shifted downward from Project Architect to Job Captain to Drafter. On the one hand, the mix of our workload has shifted from more manager-heavy smaller projects to less manager-light bigger projects. On the other hand, maybe I suck :?

In any case, I haven't had a raise in two years, the office workload is drying up, and nearly half of our staff resigned in the last two months for better opportunities, despite the good work culture here. They've long maintained a policy of paying ARE exam fees as a way to retain talent / minimize the expense of hiring by slowing down the turnaround cycle. That said, I don't think they'll have any use for my licensure, and I don't expect a raise.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby ekelsey15 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:20 am

That's unfortunate introversed. Are you looking elsewhere? Or waiting to see where the chips land?
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby kerzzo » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:40 am

it does not really matter---I guess we do the licenses for our own benefit even if it doesn't always mean a raise, but for sure better chances at being part of the team in many RFP responses sent by firms, where in some cases, the ability of the individual is only judged by the license(unfortunately) and we know that is not the case most of the time----sometimes very capable individuals are not licensed and don't plan on doing so---but that limits their opportunities....that's my two cents :)
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby introversed » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:47 am

Oh I agree completely, kerzzo. I was just going on about my current situation.

I'm loyal to my own growth - both personal and professional growth - and never felt any loyalty whatsoever to an employer. That doesn't mean I don't put my all in - I do - but I do it in service to the project and to my own work ethic. However, I never feel bad about resigning when the time becomes right to do so.

I've worked with a few people over the years who hesitate to find a new job (even if they want a change) because they feel like by leaving, they'd have unfairly taken advantage of the current firm's employee benefits and then ran off. My counter-argument is that no matter how many times you use your employee benefits (days off, doctor visits, etc), you're merely using the overhead that's been designed into your firm's fee structure, and the firm is still making money with you regardless. Otherwise you wouldn't be working there.

Getting licensed expands your professional ceiling. It's a short term investment of time (and some money) for major long term dividends. Worst case scenario, you don't lose anything, Best case, almost anything becomes possible. It opens up the door for ownership, sole proprietorship, things like that. Even if you don't end up moving in those directions, it won't be because you hit a non-licensure ceiling.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby corbismyhomeboy » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:19 am

introversed wrote:In the two years I've been at my current firm, my daily responsibilities have shifted downward from Project Architect to Job Captain to Drafter. On the one hand, the mix of our workload has shifted from more manager-heavy smaller projects to less manager-light bigger projects. On the other hand, maybe I suck

In any case, I haven't had a raise in two years, the office workload is drying up, and nearly half of our staff resigned in the last two months for better opportunities, despite the good work culture here. They've long maintained a policy of paying ARE exam fees as a way to retain talent / minimize the expense of hiring by slowing down the turnaround cycle. That said, I don't think they'll have any use for my licensure, and I don't expect a raise.


introversed, I can relate. I've been at my firm for 4 years. I spent 2 years at my original office, then transferred to a different office for a year (better location and projects), couldn't handle the 60 hr weeks and moved back to my original office. My responsibilities went from draftsman to Project Architect to Project Manager (out of necessity) then a sudden downshift back to draftsman with some PM duties on pass-through projects. There is wide gap in how different PMs in my office manage their staff. When I work for some managers, I speak directly with the client, go to CA meetings alone, and basically only report back to my manager on what is going on and any big issues. Others don't allow me to ever meet the client or go on site at any point, and I'm basically just producing drawings/managing the paperwork. I'm not sure if it's something I did (couldn't handle the 60 hr weeks?) or because our work has significantly slowed down. Anyone that I discuss this with says 'you have to be patient and earn your way up' which is fine, I don't mind doing that, but how will I learn to do this job if I'm a paper pusher? I've talked to my PM who doesn't include me, and he keeps promising that I'll get to be involved later in the project.

We've had a number of staff leave for better opportunities in the last year, and we do have a really good/positive work culture as well. I sincerely enjoy working with every person in my office. But we don't offer raises or performance reviews at all, only bonuses, and no support for exams/IDP/AXP or professional organizations unless you're at PM. There aren't many other opportunities in my area, and moving would mean moving away from my significant other. I'm just wondering at what point do you look for something better, even if the something you have a doable/comfortable, but no longer fulfilling?
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby nickedemus » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:05 am

corbismyhomeboy wrote:
introversed wrote:Others don't allow me to ever meet the client or go on site at any point, and I'm basically just producing drawings/managing the paperwork. I'm not sure if it's something I did (couldn't handle the 60 hr weeks?) or because our work has significantly slowed down. Anyone that I discuss this with says 'you have to be patient and earn your way up' which is fine, I don't mind doing that, but how will I learn to do this job if I'm a paper pusher? I've talked to my PM who doesn't include me, and he keeps promising that I'll get to be involved later in the project.


Corb, I suggest you be proactive. I was stuck in a department like that a couple of years ago and had the same anxiety: how am I going to learn if I'm stuck doing busywork? I ended up moving to an engineering department where the management delegates and I am forced to learn new things every day. Could you do something like that? Or more importantly, would you be willing to cross over to the dark side for a while? I know a lot of architects turn purple at the thought of working for engineers, but take it from me, it's a good move in terms of practical experience. Also, engineers are in higher demand than architects, so you would have more options if you had to look outside of your company.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby tom999w » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:34 am

Hi everybody, I know the answer to the original question. The best way to get a raise at your job is to quit it and get a new one. I'm living proof, I worked in a firm for 9 1/2 years only getting $1-2 dollar raises every year. I thought that was ok but could have been better. After a degree of frustration of getting nickel and dime raises after being a dedicated worker, I quit and went to work with a competitor. Since I've worked at that first job for so long I was well known in the field. As a result, the competitor gave me a $50,000 per year raise with no questions asked. Coincidentally, I now work with the same exact clients and players but make alot more per year. There's no way my first firm would have gave me a 50k raise if I'd asked them. They would have laughed me out the door.

I'm not licensed yet, but when I do get licensed, my plan is to quit this job and go with another competitor for another $50k per year raise. I don't worry about loyalty to a firm because individually, we need to do what's best for ourselves. I'm not saying to specifically chase the money only, but this current $50k raise pretty much changed my life from being poor to having extra money available for fun things and investments.

Regarding what to say at an interview, I would say to tell them what you need to make, don't ask them what they'll pay. Like someone said in an earlier post, the worst they can say is no. After that they'll negotiate to a mutually acceptable wage. If their counteroffer is too low then look somewhere else. Don't undersell yourself. I have co-workers (support staff, not architects) that make six figures AND DON'T EVEN HAVE COLLEGE DEGREES, ONLY HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMAS. So I think that asking alot of wage for all the crap we had to jump through to get licensed is not asking too much.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby Quigaboo » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:43 am

I finished my exams 2 years ago. My boss at the time of 13 years did not help with the cost or offer support during the testing process when I was his lead guy who in the past had talked of making me a partner as I was responsible for the production of most of the work in the office. After a month I mentioned a pay bump which he did BUT then started getting petty with vacation time as I still only had 2 weeks off after all those years, Included my holiday bonus in my 1099 (I was hired as a consultant and not an employee) which meant the bonus then put me in a different tax bracket which made my health insurance rates bump considerably and I had to pay out even more in taxes in essence costing me money and not helping me make any more. I became MISERABLE so almost 3 months ago I told him to Eff-off and now I have my own practice working from home.

Long story short. If you want to make good money, chances are you should go to work for yourself. If there is one thing the d-bag taught me after all those years it was that you are not going to make a lot of money or retire at a reasonable age working for someone else. Go on your own! I am making much more money, I can wake up and walk down a flight of stairs to my home office and only be wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I make my own hours and don't have to listen to anyone barking orders at me (except the clients of course). Generally I am extremely happy with my decision to leave and can't imagine going back to work for someone else ever again.

Of course there are some exceptions to this and there are people out there killing it working for a firm but I have found that they are far and few between.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby ekelsey15 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:49 am

Quigaboo

What type of work were you doing before, and what type are you doing now? Does working on your own limit the projects you can try to get?
We work on mostly large schools where I am. There is no chance of getting that on your own around here. Just curious to see what type of work would be available other than residential.
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Re: Raise after license?

Postby Quigaboo » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:27 am

I previously worked on mixed residential and commercial (restaurants, offices, hospitality). My primary focus on my own has been residential and I have landed some really large projects however I have got some good commercial work as well. I guess that was another good thing that came out of working for him (experience in multiple types of projects and not just one specialty area). I have a friend that works primarily on schools and he has dipped his toe into residential work so that when the time comes for him to go on his own he has some experience. He did not have to sign a non-compete for the firm he is in so it is easy for him to do it as it doe not conflict with his office work.
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