Basic Service / Additional Service

Basic Service / Additional Service

Postby BITINGTHEDUST » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:27 pm

This is a basic & silly question, but I got confused.

According to B201, Architect shall assist the owner in connection with owner's responsibility for filing documents required for the approval of governmental authority having jurisdiction over the project.

Based on it, which is the architect's basic services?

- prepare SWPPP, BMP, and other plans required from agencies (basic?)
- assist CEQA process (additional?)
- prepare documents required for CEQA process (additional?)

Any info would be appreciated!
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Re: Basic Service / Additional Service

Postby pwlcapricorn1 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:50 pm

I think the basic services are those like typical consultants, Structural, MEP. Extra services would be LEED, Acoustic, Security, Food Service.

For the stated items you have listed I think they would just be scoping items to add into the contract. If a biologist is required to aid in preparing the required information for agency submittal, yes that's an extra service, but it should be rolled into the contract and explained to the Owner why that extra service is required.

I think in general: If the client asked you for a proposal for a project located on the coast, near a wetland, etc. these would be scoping items added into your proposal to cover the cost of additional consultants, additional review time, public hearings etc. No different than adding fee for a structural engineer or other consultants. An additional service would be something added after the contract had been signed. If the client later added a green roof to the scope of the project, you would want additional services for you and your consultants, plus any additional consultants required to integrate this system into the building.

I hope I'm not mixing this term of Additional Service
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Re: Basic Service / Additional Service

Postby pwlcapricorn1 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:41 pm

Short answer: Look in AIA document B201, Article 3 for a list of add services.
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Re: Basic Service / Additional Service

Postby cpane » Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:07 pm

Please also note that each phase of the project comes with different departmental requirements. These requirements from these departments should be fully researched prior to submitting a fee to a client for services. If it is standard that in order to get your project approved, these forms...along with these plans...etc....need to be submitted at certain intervals...then that time / fee should be incorporated in your proposal for services. If however, the clients wants additional documentation above and beyond the required amounts for those departments, then additional services would be understandable.

Just as architects design in compliance with the building code...Just because there is code change in the middle of the DD or CD phase, doesn't entitle us to additional fee. We agree to give our clients code compliant design.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Basic Service / Additional Service

Postby JackuPG » Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:14 pm

'Just as architects design in compliance with the building code...Just because there is code change in the middle of the DD or CD phase, doesn't entitle us to additional fee. We agree to give our clients code compliant design.'

B201 article3.3.1.3 lists revisions of codes, law, regulations as a circumstance where A can receive additional fees.
A needs to notify O prior to providing the additional service
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Re: Basic Service / Additional Service

Postby JackuPG » Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:23 pm

I'm going to correct that and fully include the section:

3.3.1.3 Changing or editing previously prepared instruments of service necessitated by the enactment or revision of codes, laws, regulations or official interpretations.

how do we interpret 'previously prepared"? Once that CD is concluded and documents have been submitted for permit?
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Re: Basic Service / Additional Service

Postby cpane » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:35 am

Thanks Jack for the researched response.

It has been my experience that if there was going to be a code change starting January, then we would push to get our CD's into the building department / DSA / other approval agency in mid December to get them "time stamped" before the code change took effect. All comments from the approval agency would still be under the old code. This was recently true when there are big Title 24 Part 6 energy change. Our developer clients wanted us to push to get drawings in before the change took place.

But...if there are erratas that are sent to clarify or revised code exceptions or minor dimensional tweaks, then no....we never asked the owner for additional fee. You don't want to be labeled as someone who "nickels and dimes" your client.

In summary....if there is a code change in January of the next year...then a discussion with your client before hand (depending on how much time it will take you to complete a set of drawings) should be made to see if you can submit plans in December. If overtime is required...because your client lets you know two months prior and its a 4 month job..then your client will pay a premium. This has happened, when clients would have to pay for their spot in line so to speak.

Thanks again Jack for your post and hope this helps everyone's understanding.
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Re: Basic Service / Additional Service

Postby hnQ_9999 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:24 pm

We had a similar real world condition that our project got
underbid. It got postponed for more than 9 months, and finally
we had to reduce the scope to rebid it. The code changes happened
after the 90 days window from bid date. My boss kept telling me
we didn't get pay for the revised works, (and it's $7M const cost.)
I don't know what to believe.
I think revising work after CD submission 90d shall be
additional service (that includes code change updates, of course),
but this is not the original post question.
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Re: Basic Service / Additional Service

Postby adventurer4hire » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:46 pm

hnQ_9999 wrote:We had a similar real world condition that our project got underbid. It got postponed for more than 9 months, and finally we had to reduce the scope to rebid it.
It think you meant to say overbid, or something along those lines. I assume that you had to do the redesign because the bid was "Over" the Client's budget. Anyway, back to what you said...

cpane wrote:The code changes happenedafter the 90 days window from bid date. My boss kept telling mewe didn't get pay for the revised works, (and it's $7M const cost.)I don't know what to believe.I think revising work after CD submission 90d shall be additional service (that includes code change updates, of course),but this is not the original post question.
I think your Boss was correct. Having said that, I don't know what your firm's contract with the client was. But for the sake of my explanation, and for the sake of all of us here focusing on this exam, let's assume your firm used standard, non-modified, AIA contracts. Per AIA B102 Section 5.3 "If the Owner suspends the project for more than 90 cumulative days for reasons other than the fault of the Architect, the Architect may terminate the Agreement...." I think in your situation the Client had a right to blame your firm because it is the Arch's responsibility to design something that will conform with that the Owner can afford. The reason I quote that is because I want to establish that I think your boss was put in a situation where you had to do a redesign as required under AIA B201 Section 5.6.3, even though the Client delayed the project. However, there was the possibility that your boss may have been able to claim some sort of extra compensation for the updating of plans for compliance with the new code under B201 Section 3.3.1.3. IF part of the project did not change during the redesign (I don't know enough about this project to say for sure), AND that part of the project that did not change needed to be updated to comply with the new code. Your boss may have had an argument to request compensation for that part only. Now, (for the sake of argument, and I know you like to think of all possible loopholes and scenarios ;) ) if your firm was submitting cost estimates all along through the different phases of Design, AND those estimates where in-line with the actual bids that were received, and then out of nowhere the Client claims it is too expensive, you can call Bull Sh** on him and make him pay you to redesign. Then it is extra services.
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Re: Basic Service / Additional Service

Postby hnQ_9999 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:35 am

Adventure4hire, Thank you for your well thought response.
I still feel guilty stealing someone's post. Here is the
answer to the original post: "CEQA, env.issues, entitlement phase
should be additional srvc."
--
Back to my post.
I agreed to all things you said, given the unknown factors,
which other readers shouldn't be concerned with, for their CSE study.

a) B102, however does not spell out after 60d of postponing the project
by the Owner, the Architect is terminating the contract by default,
BUT rather Architect has to give out a 7d written notice (60+7=67d).
I am not sure the Architects wd do that in practice (I am not a Boss to know).

b) I couldn't find where it says how long is the limit
after being overbid (you are correct), the Architect has to work
for free to adjust the design (I guess it has to falls back to (a).)
(I knew my Boss had to pay for engineers in this particular prj, I saw the CT).

c) I also think, code conformity as additional srvc is not "by portions" but
rather the "entire project" (that what we did for this proj).

d) Extra info : As being called into working for the adjusting phase of the proj,
my condition to my boss was to obtain a different cost estimator, and he agreed,
so I guess the previous cost estimate was not in line as expected. The rebid
was a success, just a few $$K over.
--------But that is too much minutia for CSE----------
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Re: Basic Service / Additional Service

Postby gbalaka » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:49 pm

.....so CEQA...amiright????
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